Wednesday, December 27, 2006

Chaverah's question inverted

SO Chaverah asked a great question about the nasty habits of men.
And so this blogger wants to know pretty much the same but I'm asking it from a male point of view.
  1. Why do women wear a suit to the grocery.
  2. Why do females think they need makeup.
  3. Why do married women wear shietals with skin/french parts or "natural looks".
  4. Why do girls still naively think that men just 'wanna talk".
  5. Why are female styles geared to accentuate the body.
  6. What in the world are women thinking, trying to squeeze into clothing that's too small/tight for them, to the point that underwear lines show through.
  7. Why do orthodox girls wear those tops that reveal waist when they lean to one side.
  8. Dresses robe and coats that have belts, are those really tzniusdik? Isn't the whole point of the belt to enhance the hourglass shape, and therefore pretzus?

OK OK you get the idea, so knowing how males think, why the heck would females wear this kinda clothing?

The only reasoning I heard is that they want to be seen or as I've heard it put "I wanna look good" and of course the response to that is, look good to who?

67 comments:

anonym00kie said...

i dont understand this post. you want men to tell you why women do certain things?

Anonymous said...

you shmuck women dress to kill and look good for ourselves not for men.

heimishinbrooklyn said...

Great post! Obviously we want to look good but don't want anyone staring at us. That make sense? The school that I went to recently changed a lot of the tznius rules. When you wear a shirt and skirt you must wear something like a sweater or a vest over it. They said that the waist and overall the figure shouldn't be seen. Many argued that the rule isn't for everyone and it's true. There are many really thin girls that look ok and not pritzius'dik but you can't pick out the heavier girls or the ones that do wear it on the hips....
And so the rule is in effect and I believe it is a great one. But many wear whatever they want once they leave school.
The problem is we want to look good but if someone stares then he's a pervert...
I heard this a while ago, don't remember excatly but the punchline I remember.
A women was walking along the street when a guy started hitting on her. So (for some reason) she said "look, there's a cop" to which he replied "no, he's not a cop" So she said, "what do you mean he's not a cop? He looks like a cop, he's dressed like a cop, so he's a cop" To which he replied "You look like a slut and you're dressed like a slut, so you're a slut!"

We want people to notice us but not stare and we should be known as 'erlicha and feina' women, but guess what? If you want to be noticed and your eyes are all over then you'll be seen from a mile away!

yingerman said...

Mookie
I want to understand WHY women dress like they want to be an object.

anon
First let me fix your grammar.
Y(y)ou Mr. (s)Shmuck , women dress to kill and look good for ourselves, not for men.

Look good for yourselves?
Sounds like a serious case of lack of self confidence.

Hiemish
Why do you want people to notice you?
What is the point in that?

Chaim Chusid said...

Yingerman,

WHY do you assume that your going to get an answer?

CC

yingerman said...

I'm not sure I will.
I think I really know the truth BUT I wanna hear the froen say it!

FunkyJew82 said...

lol! i thought this post was really funny and honest.
i guess women just want to look good for themselves. they feel better about themselves when they know they look good. would you feel the same if you went out looking like a slob? and let's be honest... people who are more attractive are treated better. it's just they way things are.

jemima3 said...

agree with last comment. why do men think that everything women do is geared towards them? we care about how we look for our own pride and self confidence.

megapixel said...

I always wonder why women get all dressed up in a suit to go to the grocery. I dont get that. I like to be comfortable. I think THAT is a lack of tznius, to be overdressed for the occasion. You attract attention that way. A nice sweater and skirt is enough. Going for a walk with your stroller in a suit with jacket is asinine. It looks stupid! As far as the skin part - it looks like real hair! thats why.

Sarachka said...

Great points! This is actually the first time I have heard a male say that they do not appreciate womens efforts to "enhance thier beauty". I do agree with jemima3- women try to be presentable to themselves. (Ok- not the skin-tight skirts and too-short shirts) but I still see nothing wrong with a "natural" looking sheitel, or a bit of make-up and a well taylored suit. Women will always, well... just be women!(do you have any suggestions on how to change that? its a natural tendency!)

chaverah said...

lol, fun post. so you think women are just as nuts??? I dont think so! lets look at it this way: why do women dress to tight, makeup, dress up where ever??? Because of men! MEN MEN MEN! Of course we do it for ourselves as well. BUT the bottom line is men are so critical and we just try the best we can. So if you ask why do we do it? just take a look at yourself and your friends! thats why.

thanks for branching out from my post! there is alot to focus on!

Anonymous said...

first of all a well deserved compliment to a chasidisher yingerman writing such beautifully written posts.
second of all im a froe and have no desire whatsoever to dress up am i crazy? i hate this make up business when i do put on i do it with no chaishik at all. i have beautiful suits in the closet but never wear them, before i get dressed i think to myself, WHY???? for whom am i gettin dressed now? at home for hub i understand, otherwise i feel if i go out dressed like a slut its only gonna be to attract attention from the opposite sex and it mmakes me feel foolish to be doing so.

Sarachka said...

My city has such a small jewish community that if you actually wear tznius and presentable clothing, EVERYONE will stare at you. No, I am not trying to justify all of those pretzusdik people here, its just ironic how in some places, dressing modestly will get you more attention than you want. Thats what I love when I come to NY- no one notices you any way!

Pragmatician said...

In the name if all male bloggers, thank you!
Each gender have their own unexplainable meshuggassen.
My Madrich warned me about that, he said that the brain of women is essentially operating differently than their male counterpart.
He gave me some concrete examples and they all proved to be true.
That's just the way it is.

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

Some women do want to be an object and often don't realize how they are portraying themselves. I feel good when I look good. Lots of times women do dress well for themselves as well.

BarbaraFromCalifornia said...

Well, has it ever occurred to you that a woman dressed up, puts on make-up to make herself feel good? It is not for the man, but for herself? Just a thought!

anonym00kie said...

i agree that women like to dress up for themselves - in part - but that just means dressing in a way that feels put together. when youre talking about sexy/stylish clothes - no one does it for themselves! you do it to impress other men OR women.
when im home and theres no one around, i wont just wear any yucky piece of clothing, thats why girls like to buy fun house stuff too, pj's, socks.. not just sexy stuff, but cute stuff too. thats for yourself. and i dont know if men can relate to that.
but when youre talking about wearing tons of make up, jewelry, fancy clothes, tight clothes.. that has got to be to impress others, or else whats the point?

now why do women feel the need to dress to impress? probably because since they are teeny they are being told that they are judged based on those superficial criterias (how often do you tell a little boy he looks nice? how often do you tell a little girl shes pretty? how often do you buy girls pretty dresses, bows, jewelry and have them impress their friendsm family..), so they start to measure their worth that way too.
i also think theres something in the way g-d created us that makes us crave that kind of attention
- which would make sense that hashem would then ask us to work on that (tznius), since its our nature and we need to overcome it and learn to use it for the good.

Anonymous said...

M00kie, well put

It give them a good feeling to look good.

Most woman dress up for themselves first, and to impress others second.

yingerman said...

Funkyjew
Thanx but I think there is something more to it.

Jemima
as a male I find that totally incongruous with our way of thought.

Megapixel
"As far as the skin part - it looks like real hair!"
SO?
why do married women need that?

Sarachka
I do love it when women get all ditzy, but do they know that males love it?
And if they do, would they still dress that way?

Chaverah
So you say that women do it to get the men to look?
OMG really? (expressed sarcastically)

ANON
ah...the truth is music to my ears.

Prag
true but in this case women should really take a good look at themselves and realize whats real.

SWFM
"I feel good when I look good."
I hear, but I'm asking why, what is it that makes you feel good?

Barb from CA
"that a woman dressed up, puts on make-up to make herself feel good"
YES buy WHY does it make you feel good?

Mookie
so women have to live up to expectations like calling a kid a ceratin name like liar or tzaddikle then the kid whats to grow into it?
OK
I can hear that
So is it a deeprooted self image thing, I know that unmarried girls wear lacy underware even though no one is ever going to see it.
wierd, sorta, well for a male anyway.

Mrs. Jude said...

Ok I live WAY OUT in the sticks...so my opinion is reflecting that....
Why do they dress up for the store?? Dunno..I myself don't get that.
Why do some wear sheitels?? Well I wore teichels and hats for a while but I felt very "unsafe" in our area..so I switched... I want to be tznua but not scared... (btw mine does not have the fancy part.)
As far as I am aware men don't just want to talk...unless we are niddah. lol
Styles were made to accenutate the body cause people confuse "seeing everything" w/ being sexy...Not the same thing!
Same answer for the squeezing into stuff that is too small as above... only add a measure of self consciousness. In my experience the women who dress the most flaunty have the lowest self esteem.
...but this is just my opinion...

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

That's what makes me feel good. Looking good is a good feeling there is no deep answer here.

anonym00kie said...

yingerman, i have some questions for you:
1) do you ever look at women at the grocery store?
2) do you like girls who are pasty, blotchy, with greycolored lips?
3) do you find those straw sheitels old ladies wear attractive?
4) do/did you ever talk to a girl, pretending to be itnerested in what she had to say?
5) do you like looking at a female with an accentuated body?
6)do you think women in fitted clothing look nice?
7) do you like getting a little peak of skin when a girl leans to the side?
8) do yu find girls in potato sack fitting clothes nice looking?
9)do you understand why women like lookign nice? :)

shy said...

I agree with chaverah I like what she said,
Very interesting post
I thought about this for a while, my first reaction was like most women we do it for ourselves to feel good
BUT than I honestly dug deep inside and I came up with this
If we women would live in the woods with nobody around us for miles just a grocery every few miles with one old lady working there would we put make up first thing in the morning before we go for a bottle of milk? Would we dress up in the fitted outfit or… when we take out the baby for fresh air? Don’t think so
Yes there are things we would do for our self even in the woods,
Like
Spa, message, full body wax, even use make up and dress up for our self in the house (after the kids are all taken care of )
Anyway you get the point

chaverah said...

shy - thank you, deep down we all try to look good for others. We can all admit that if we were stuck on a desert island we would all be wearing "comfortable" clothes.

frum said...

Hey,
Firstly, I don't think this is such a great question b/c you're assuming women think like men. They don't. They've got a whole different mental set-up, and their physical appearance is all mixed up with their self-esteem, etc. This doesn't mean all women are insecure and superficial - different women function differently - but I think that it has to do with a lot of factors. For ex., frum women are MUCH more fancy in brooklyn than pretty much most places (out of town, Israel, etc) - so clearly, it isn't just for men, it's also peer pressure. That said, I think this is a great, interesting blog, and as a former member of a chassidishe community, I think it's often frikken hilarious! keep it up!

Y.Y. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Hi Yingerman,

I just discovered your blog today -and i'm afraid i'm hooked already. You're doing a marvelous job expressing your chasidisha yungerman trials, it makes me mamash wonder if i don't happen 2 know u... :)

In regards to this post - well, I'm a girl, not yet married, and yes, I do dress up nice (inside and out). I can say in all honesty, I do not do this for yungerman like you out there. Not at all. I take care in the way I dress and look, so I should like what I see in the mirror. I do not dress up so that you should turn around and stare. As a matter of fact, if I sometimes feel that my reflection is a little too much, will elicit 2 many eyes upon me, I downgrade it, to prevent that. Since this is anonymous here, I feel comfortable saying that I always do look good. It's not a matter of doing if for any guy or any woman either. It's just who I am for myself. Women are created differently than you guys, so perhaps you won't understand this. But belt aher, and belt ahin, I don't think it's right to blanket all women w/ the assumption we're just out to get you guys. It's not like that.

Anonymous said...

Same poster as above:

So why do I wear cute pj's, undies, socks, etc, etc, as well? No one even KNOWS that I wear 'em, never mind sees them! Just 'cuz I want to right? And same goes for everything else...

kaenahora said...

I have the perfect answer to this post, but its not directly answering your questions.

Everytime I go to a wedding or bar mitzvah, no one asks me how my master's degree is going, no one cares that I won another scholarship, or did another amazing internship. They dont care where I have traveled, they dont care about my world view. no. they say, WHY THE HECK ARENT YOU MARRIED????

_________________________________

I took a gender class at my university and there were alot of different ethnic groups in the room and all of the first and second generation immigrants, and 90% of every other girl was getting the same treatment. "SO DID YOU MEET A NICE BOY RECENTLY??"

my my my. the biological clock is ticking. And, my dear when that social pressure goes away, we will dress unattractively. but i dont beleive taht will happen.

women want to look nice because WE WANT TO BE DESIRED. which is helpful if you want the species to continue. your question is deeper than what at first glace appears to be quite BORAT-like.

Sarachka said...

Ok, now that we know that each woman is different. They all dress up for different reasons and each man has a different opinion of womens habits. What good did that do?

megapixel said...

1-having a skin part makes me look like I have real hair, not like some weirdo wearing a wig. In the world outside of our little religious circle, wearing a wig can be perceived as strange!
2- In the religious circle, wearing a good wig, aside from making me look good is also a little bit of a status symbol. Kind of like guys think they look better in an SUV than in an old banged up Toyota Celica, I feel like I look better in a really nice wig that in an old shmatta. i would be embarrassed to be wearing an old junk on my head when everyone around me is wearing nice quality shaitels.

David_on_the_Lake said...

btw..That whole mishegoss of getting dressed up to go to the grocery is a frum thing.
In the outside world theres no such thing. You put on makeu when you have a wedding or an imprtant meeting...etc

David_on_the_Lake said...

and one more thing..

M00kie Rocks!

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Dave - I'm not sure why it's frum, but dressing up is not another 'pritsa'. In the frum world you're looked at funny if you go out dressed in 'shmatas'.

Sarachka said...

agree with dave-mookie rocks!

Anonymous said...

I can not speak for other women, I can not even speak for my own wife, I will simply tell you what i have noticed.

When my wife feels good about the way she looks (ie drops a few pounds) she dresses better feels better is happier and makes me happier [if you know what I mean ;) ] when she is not happy with the way she looks she dresses more shlumpy is in a worse mood and I am not as happy either.

It all comes back to how she feels about herself, she does not dress for anyone but the person looking at her in the mirror (sometimes it is me standing behind her)

yingerman said...

Mrs jude
I thought so but most seem to disagree

SWFM
have you though about it much or it just sorta seems natural?

Mookie
The answer is yes, women who dress the part get looks.
But I asked if thats what you really intend?

Shy
so you feel its both? that girls like pretty things but also want the attention it gets them?

Frum
true NY'ers overdo it by far
and thanx for the compliment, it helps me feel this blog is worth the time spent


ANON
you probably do!

kenahora
thanx yes it was deeper than it appears
and why the heck aren't you married?

sarachka
makes it more fun ;)

megapixel
oh so its an ego thing?

david
see megapixels answer and yes mookele does rock

shpitzle
IS THAT YOU
she's alive!

anon jan 2 7:45
yes spousy tells me the same and I KNOW she's not a flirt

anonym00kie said...

do women do it to get attention? in part. do women do it to feel good? in part. do women feel good when they get attention? in part. do women dress up for their friends? in part? do women dress up cuz girls like pretty things? in part. were women raised in a soceity that judges them based on their looks? in part. is it part of women's nature to care about these things? in part.
you get the point..
ive been thinking about this question since you put it up, and im still trying to figure out my motives.. and this is what ive come up with.. hope it helps..

yingerman said...

ok mookele tell me if I got it right
women need to look good for the sake of self image
BUT
they like the attention it gets them
EVEN
if it mean males will check 'em out

so?
now, I understand that not all are created equal, so the chick who's mom always called her 'beautiful' obviously wants the eyes more that the rest and the low self confidence/image person dresses louder than the norm, like the small wewe guy drives a bigger car.

Imfullofit said...

Well Well, i've come across this blog from one link that led to the next until this topic caught my eye. From the looks of the comments, it seems like we are getting woman from diff chassidic and frum backgrounds. I am a 22 single female and i live in the wonderful community of Crown Height, the heart of Lubavitch. So let's hear my perspective (not a typical crown heighter, as i recently moved here, but as another female with some chabadness to her.) I work in williamsburg and i see how the women dress and i also see how the women (and mexicans!) stare at me. Working in williamsburg with a chassidishe boss, i am extremely careful with the way i dress, that is to my standards. You would not see any chassidishe girl/woman wearing what i wear, although to my community standards it is 100% tznius, and i am talking, skirt covering the knee, elbows and collarbone covered, not too tight clothing. Now why do i dress this way? (ok, i am a little off topic but i wanted to introduce myself... and i got off topic) but anyways, i dress nicely and presentable and make sure my hair is done and make sure i have clean or manicured nails and make sure i have makeup on because if i would look into the mirror and see a girl with: pimples, frizzy unkept hair, pale face with no color, wearing baggy clothes that does absolutely nothing to enhance my beauty, dirty nails that are pealing, yes, i feeeeel ugly!! who wants to feel ugly? Am i doing it for other people? me, personally, %90 of the time, no. Yes there are times when i am home alone and don't bother getting dressed nicely or i am not in the mood of getting all dressed up.. sweater, blouse, short skirt, stockings, the works so i just dump on a long jean skirt with sneakers. But when i get dressed up, it is for me! It is to look presentable. (going back to what i wrote before, yes, some clothes can make a person look fat or ugly or make them just look "blah" and some can just fit their body like a glove and make them look good) I guess you guys/men out there may not know such things.There are many things about women that you just don't know...

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Imfullofit - very interesting comment.

anonym00kie said...

women keep saying they get dressed for themselves, to feel good - as if to say they dont do it for others.
my question is - who taught you that feeling good has any connection to looking good? what is the intrinsic value in looking good, put together, beautiful?
if you lived in a society where ugly, unkept people were more highly regarded, would you still feel good dressing up?
sure we dress up to look good cuz it makes us feel good, but it makes us feel good cuz we;ve been taught that looking good has value to it. so in fact, we arent really doing it for ourselves, we are doing it to fit into what we've been indocrinated to beleive.

a person should feel beautiful because she IS beautiful, should feel good because she is worth it - real beauty and really feeling good about oneself comes from being an amazing incredible person with a smile and a soul that shines through. when a person has deep intrinsic value they dont base their "feeling good" on superficial criteria..
(not that i know too many poeple like that)
i think we dress up and want to look put together, to make up for what we feel we are lacking internally.
(sorry yingerman, i cant get away from this post :)

Anonymous said...

anon of jan 2nd are you my husband?? LOL that is exactly how I am - when I feel good with myself I feel on top of the world and it is expressed with the way I hold myself/dress/wear maeup etc. am more outgoing and vice versa.

Imfullofit said...

anon... this is the society i live in. A person is usually affected by their surroundsings. Now, you can let it take you over, or you can have a healthy medium. I prefer the healthy medium. Not too much and not too little. I like looking put togerther and not all shlumpy. What defines "put together"? I guess my surroundings. But who am i doing it for? ME! Sorry anon.. i diasagree with you. I dress cuz i am lacking something inside? absolutely not! If i or someone else had to look good ALL the time, that may mean something leaning towards vanity. It all depends on the person. But i think a woman gets dressed nicely and puts on makeup to look presentable. That's all!

Anonymous said...

you of course may dissagree with me however you can't invalidate how I fell - I was talking about me being a female - wasnt talking on behalf of the wholes pecies.

the only way i know said...

i still say there's something about doing it for yourself. I love to feel sexy when no one is around..(for hubby too, of course )! - but I love to look great outside too - although I do realize that when I dress up to go out...it has alot to do with self-esteem and the fact that I don't want to meet someone who looks fabulous, and feel like a slob near her..yuk!
that said..I can't say it's not a a perk to get 'noticed' by the opp gender - (not modest, though)

A friend of mine recently told me, that while she finds wolf whistles degrading, she appreciates the good feeling of a guy getting her luggage for her off the carousel at the airport..lol - makes her feel like 'she's still got 'it' ''...
It's all tied up with self esteem - not because we like to make men crazy...

The 'why' it's tied up with self esteem, is a longer answer..gotta think about it a bit...



-and all THAT said - Halacha is suppose to be there so that we have guidelines to follow,
and I can think of 2 reasons for it...maybe I'm wrong, but maybe there is some truth to it..

It is possible that if a woman follows halacha she will come to recognize her true value..and it will not become intertwined with the way she looks...and that would lead to further enhance her relationship with her husband, because if she feels secure and confident as a person, and also uses the 'extra' effort (sexy clothes, etc) just for her husband..it enhances the relationship..and eventually enhances the connection with Hashem...while being less modest..eventually creates a greater distance from our Creator..because we are connecting less acutely with our spouses, (and perhaps causing desires to surface in other men, etc..although this is less the point than the connection with one's spouse)

The second reason I would think there are Halachic guidelines are for the benefit of men...who do desire beautiful women..and to make the situation less complicated.

kasamba said...

Am I the only one to say, 'good question'?

ms. shtark said...

cute post... getting dressed up i guess makes us feel good. getting a nice shaitel makes much more sense than getting an ugly one - who wants to wear a shmatte? i don't think it's only for men. i think we like to look good amongst all the females around us as well and just look good.

Anonymous said...

yeah kasamba you are the only intelligent person here

smoo said...

Mrs. Jude said, “In my experience the women who dress the most flaunty have the lowest self esteem.”

In my personal life and profession life I have come across women who are always dressed to the nines. When further questioned I learned that they had serious mental illness and that the makeup was a cover up for their insecurities. Now obviously this doesn’t ring true for most women but it certainly should give pause when confronted by those women who seem to go to the extreme.

Please see my post about men’s ogling at http://shmuzings.blogspot.com/2006/11/go-ogle.html

kisarita said...

of course I want men to check me out!
SOME men, not ALL men. I don't want unavailable, old, or ugly unattractive men to check me out.


But how can I possibly accomplish that?????

a DIFFERENT yungerleit's wife said...

Great post! ..and it is important that you are making women aware that men really think like this, as women do not!
To answer the questions -

1) A woman dresses up NOT because of men (at east once she is married), but mainly because of peer pressure (from women), and also, sadly, because in the society we were raised in, our self esteem is somewhat dependant on "feeling good" as well - that does not mean we are shallow and don't have depth, personality, hashkafa, etc and even know our worth, but just that we feel better about ourselves having been raised in Am-Reikah!

2) in terms of belts you are right - there are chazals (I think it's in the gemara but not sure i heard it in a torah tape) that there was a generation where there was a machala (plague) and they couldn't figure out why, as they were all very "shtark" and the gedolim of that generation came out and said its because of the belts the women wear since their form shows - they stopped wearing them and the machala disappeared!

3) the tight skirts are often because a women doesn't realize its too tight (she doesn't see her backside in the mirror), or she's in denial that she has to wear a bigger size which is depressing for a woman, or it's made from a material which falls on her in a way that it shows everything, which leads me to my next point...

4) All of the above is because MEN IN PARIS, NY, etc. ARE DESIGNING THE FASHIONS IN THE STORES, they purposely accentuate areas on the clothing because they KNOW HOW MEN THINK and WANT to make clothing attract attention!! (do you see why our generation gets to the 50th shaar hatumah and needs mashiach to take us out of it?!!?!!)
Anyway the problem is that these "smartly" designed clothing are THE ONLY THINGS AVAILABLE in the stores!! and therefore it is virtually impossible to find "proper", unaccentuated, tznius material clothes, even for those of us who truly want to, forget about those women who'd like to but who's resolve is not very strong! If someone would come out (I know leitzim reading this will have fun with this) with a "kosher" women's clothing store (designed approved by rabbanim and all we'd have left would be to pick out a size that is really tznius) then we would all be better off!
which leads me to one more point about the stores....the SAME SIZE is getting tighter and tighter year by year to the point that it would only be tznius if used as kids clothes in which case there is virtually nothing tznius enough for us adult women!!

5) the tops that show s/t etc they don't realize it happens or what it does to a guy

6) the shaitels are mostly peer pressure when e/o else "looks good" and also as someone said to feel like we look good without straw on our hears....but real hair that looks good without a skin cap would just be peer pressure

7) men allow women to think they "wanna talk", so we don't realize til we get married (who believes teachers anyway? :p)

anyway if you have eitzos to getting tznius clothing readily available please let me know - some things look great on the hanger (in geula etc) but they are truly treif unless they happen to carry a size 4 sizes too big, maybe you could get away with it.

Desperate to be able to be more tznius in this messed up world,
(another) Yungerleit's wife

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